The Interview: ReproJobs

Hey there readers! A few weeks ago we conducted a survey and asked you who you’d like us to interview and a few of you said you’d like to hear a bit more from us. So, for our first newsletter, we are interviewing each other! We hope you’ll enjoy the chance to learn more about us, your friendly workplace equity co-conspirators. Are these our real names? Maybe, who knows!

Luna: Hey there, Hermione!

Hermione: Helloooooooooooo Luna! Let’s get this interview started! Tell everyone a little bit about you.

Luna: Hi everyone! I’m Luna, a communications strategist, social entrepreneur, and consultant. My father was a labor organizer, so I grew up walking the picket lines and seeing him sit at the dinner table with his colleagues, many of whom were women of color, planning for contract negotiations. I guess I was just raised that social justice and labor is what you work for. It’s in my blood. I’ve been working in social justice movements for over a decade in a number of different roles with a wide range of organizations. I’ve worked in the LGBT movement, the education sector, and of course the reproductive rights and justice movement. I’ve served on several boards, including one focused on developing nonprofit professionals. Leadership development is one of my deep passions because if we’re not truly developing folks as they join our movement, we’re not investing in different leadership for the future. What about you?

Hermione: I’m Hermione, a researcher, writer, reader, and mama to some dogs and a baby. I grew up in a single parent home watching my mom do it all -- work a full time job, take care of my siblings and me, and somehow maintain her sense of self, too. Only as an adult with kids of my own has she opened up to me about what a joy and struggle that was, especially not having consistent, dependable help at home and a flexible workplace that let her prioritize her family. Seeing that same tension manifest in a movement that allegedly works for the wellbeing of reproductive-age folks and their families makes my blood boil, particularly when those organizations advocate for, say, abortion access and don’t cover that procedure for their own staff, or trains their clinic staff to treat patients with dignity yet management is out here treating staff like yesterday’s garbage. As for me - I’ve also worked in reproductive health, rights, and justice for over a decade or so, in clinics and advocacy organizations, and have found a home for myself doing a combination of research and strategy work. I believe that the people working in this field are our best and brightest asset and it’s past time that we invest deeply in employee development and retention. Or, you know, unionize.

Luna: Damn. Has it really been a decade?! Well, we’ve been running ReproJobs for five years. That’s a long time to be committed to something like this, especially for millennials. What have you learned over that time?

Hermione: Oh man. Too much to list. Mostly that the reproductive health, rights, and justice field isn’t uniquely fucked up when it comes to non-profit management issues, even though it feels that way sometimes. Whenever we post a job in a related field, say labor organizing or the LGBTQ movement, someone pops up to tell us about the appalling management practices at that org, or high turnover because of one bad boss. I admit it can feel kind of hopeless sometimes, and then some change will happen -- because we’re anonymous, we can post things that other people might not be able to, like a photo naming a known sexual harasser, or questioning why a large organization is holding a party for their abusive former CEO. And that feels pretty powerful, even though it’s just a post. The amount of open secrets about horrific treatment of staff in our field is pretty astounding, and I’ve been surprised at how much our Facebook/Twitter presence has been able to break that open a bit. What about you? 

Luna: Hmmm. I feel like I’ve learned a lot. I’ve learned that most organizations won’t list salaries unless you shame the shit out of them online! I’ve learned that board members play a critical role in what our movements’ leadership looks like and how they are pushed to make changes, and that many board members have no idea what they’re doing and for some organizations aren’t part of our movement on the ground or don’t engage with staff, so they don’t hear the challenges and critiques and can’t advocate for change. I think most importantly I’ve learned that people are hungry for change. We all know what some of the workplace problems are, but we’re so exhausted from the day-to-day of work and non-stop attack on reproductive justice, particularly abortion, that we don’t have much energy left to advocate for ourselves or do the research to figure out what needs to be done. It’s been interesting to hear from everyone about the challenges we’re all facing and figuring out what the next steps are together at the virtual water cooler.

Hermione: We’ve grown from being a hub for job listings to a place where people come to look for work and conversations about equity in the workplace. Was there a moment where that really crystallized for you?

Luna: For me, it was after the Fourth of July holiday in 2016. We were coming up on the one year anniversary of Sandra Bland’s death and Alton Sterling and Philando Castile had just been murdered. It was a Fourth of July I couldn’t bear to celebrate. I couldn’t get out of bed and I think I Called In Black for a few days. And that Monday afternoon, I had to go to a policy meeting in Washington, DC with all the national repro organizations. I was one of perhaps five folks of color in a room of 40 and as we went around the table, everyone said their name and the organization they were with, and everything moved robotically and straightforward as if this was an average day. I was so upset, and I yelled and cried. I couldn’t believe that our white colleagues were moving through the world as if we were not mourning the deaths and traumatized by the videos being circulated all over social media. It was a very difficult reminder that our experiences of the world are so different, and that some of our colleagues, who swear we are fighting for the same liberation, are not feeling the pain that aches in the bodies of people of color on the daily. We have different realities. It was a painful reckoning, and it was a moment that I wanted to shift the conversation to force them to recognize what some of their colleagues, particularly their Black colleagues, are dealing with, while trying to hold it together at work. So many of us were not OK. Racial justice isn’t just about not being overtly racist. It’s about recognizing how and when society treats us differently and pausing to make a difference to rectify that. It was then that I wanted to shift ReproJobs to try to mend that gaping hole in our workplaces. I don’t actually think we’ve made a dent in it, sadly. It’s been three years and we still don’t get the same level of response when we’ve posted about folks in our movement being racist as we have for those that don’t pay a living wage or that have been sexist. I’m honestly really disappointed by it, and I hope that it will actually change at some point.

Hermione: Oh man. I remember you telling me about that. What a painful, brutal moment. For me, it’s been less one particular event than a series of seemingly small injustices, adding up. Observing how people hire for jobs in our field, mostly through word of mouth and giving positions to people they know and people like them, while at the same time, complaining on internal channels (like Facebook, or in their offices) that not enough young people and people of color apply for their positions, envelops me in an all-consuming rage. This is how people of color in particular get shut out of the very organizations that allegedly serve us. As you mention, it’s usually not the overt separate-drinking-fountains racism, but the email that isn’t forwarded, the résumé that for some reason doesn’t make it into the pile. We have to figure out how to have real, trauma-informed conversations about racism, diversity, equity, and inclusion in our workplaces, ones that result in concrete solutions consistently and frequently applied to all our organizational systems - hiring, operations, programs, organizing, employee retention - instead of one-off trainings that tend to focus on fixing white people’s feelings. Relatedly, I am also FASCINATED that whenever we post something remotely “call out-y” on ReproJobs, the folks who know who we are assume it’s you, but it’s usually me! Fucking racism, man. It runs deep.

Luna: Oof. Racism. It’s a lot. OK, looking forward, what are your hopes for this next phase of our work?

Hermione: There are three particular areas of work that I’m obsessed with. First, as a working parent, I want to know the details of the acrobatics that other parents in our field have to pull off in order to get through the day. Reproductive health, rights, and justice work is all about supporting people in creating the families they want, when they want, right? How is that actually shaking out for the people in our field? Do our organizations have policies, procedures, and cultures that actually support all people in creating and sustaining their families? What accountability mechanisms can we build in and what kinds of new policies can we advocate for to make sure that both organizations and the families within them can thrive? Second, managing people is fucking hard. It’s one of the most important things we do, yet there’s often little coaching and support for it. There’s a ton of focus and training for leadership development, but leadership and management are not the same thing, and an organization needs people skilled in both to survive. I’d love for us to be able to point people to great management support resources, and convince organizational leaders to invest in as much training and support for their managers as they do in development for their CEO. Third, SALARY TRANSPARENCY. I’d love for there to be some widely-accepted tool people use to calculate an acceptable salary for all levels of positions in our movement, and that any organization that didn’t comply with this didn’t receive funding. If you want people to do the work, you need to pay them more than enough to live.

Luna: OMG YES on the salary transparency. Nothing upsets me more than hearing that some workers in our movement are not leaving shitty jobs simply because they can’t afford it or having abortions because they’re not being paid enough to raise a family on their salary. That is economic coercion. So, my hope is that we are able to help folks walk into new dream jobs knowing how much they’re going to get paid and getting paid what they’re worth. And making enough to go on a vacation every once in a while! I’m also looking forward to interviewing interesting folks about how they got to where they are in the movement. I feel like we often interview people about their thoughts on social justice, which is important of course, but I don’t think we talk to leaders about how they got where they are, what inspires them, and how they’re trying to thrive at work enough. Oooh, also a new logo! I can’t believe I made our original one on Canva! I am excited to have a new brand. 

Hermione: Change always makes me a little anxious. Is there anything about this next phase that makes you nervous?

Luna: Good question! There’s usually not much that makes me nervous, which is actually a huge fault of mine because it leads me to do ridiculous shit, but I think I’m really nervous about fucking this up. For five years we were just playing around, but now it’s like a thing. I know we’re going to be operating in the same way, but it feels like there are higher stakes. Over the years, I’ve been approached by some movement leaders and it felt like intimidation attempts in response to some of the things we’ve uncovered and called out, so I’m nervous about more of that. But power concedes nothing without a demand. 

Hermione: Oh yeah, same. I’m nervous about fucking up, and about not living up to our own high expectations, and, most of all, fighting to make change in the movement with everything we’ve got and it not going anywhere. I know both of us low key identify as human resources nerds. What is one of your non-negotiable workplace policy issues? What, if an organization doesn’t invest in it or get it right, really frustrates you?

Luna: Evaluation and feedback processes. I’ve worked at organizations where feedback is a one-time thing that happens once a year, during annual evaluations, and is supervisor to supervisee, without meaningful engagement. It was just a list of things I did well and a list of things I did wrong, and then a suggestion to fix it for the future. There was no process for gaining professional development to support my leadership for the areas I was growing in, or a way to manage up. I believe that feedback should be an ongoing process and conversation, and that supervisors should be supporting you to learn, grow, and move forward in your career. It shouldn’t feel degrading. Everyone should be clear on what the process is, and feel empowered in it. And, if there are performance issues, the conversation should be ongoing, not dumped on you once a year. Feedback doesn’t have to be scary, but the way it’s often given can discourage us from growing and learning. 

Hermione: For me it’s remote work. Like, if you don’t trust people enough to get their work done, why the hell did you hire them in the first place? No one does a good job at work if they feel like they’re only at the office because their boss or peers need to see them physically in front of a computer in order to confirm that they are doing their job. Study after study after study shows that the more flexible you are with hours and workplace, the happier your employees are. And happy employees do good work! What I’m curious about is how remote work policies may unintentionally (or...sometimes intentionally) blur the lines between work/home such that employees now work more because there’s an expectation that they are “on” all the time. But that’s a different issue.

Luna: OK, so what’s your one dream policy?

Hermione: One full fucking year of paid parental leave. Period. With government-provided postpartum caregivers, who are fully compensated, obviously. And weekly support groups for new parents. And homemade food delivered to you. And comprehensive physical and mental health care provided right in your own home, if you can’t get out. Put barring all those “amenities,” A FULL YEAR OF PAID LEAVE, if you want to take it. And then employer-provided childcare when you return! Or at least a stipend to cover the exorbitant cost of childcare. You?

Luna: PROVIDING FREE SNACKS! FUN POST-IT COLORS! IN ALL SIZES! OFFICE POOL! NICE PENS! OOOOOOH LIKE A 0.7 GEL OR MARKER PEN! I LOVE THOSE. Do those count? No? OK, umm I guess, transparency around wages. Money is such a taboo subject, combined with the fact that we’re expected to work for pennies because we work in the nonprofit sector, and so I think people are worried to ask for what they’re actually worth, or inquire about a raise, or some people who decide the wages clearly haven’t looked at how much gentrified rent costs these days and haven’t raised their wages to something that their employees can actually raise families on. There are a lot of ways that an employer can show they value you, and the reality is, we live in a capitalist society so money is one of those ways. Of course, so is a great working environment, time off, a decent workload, support in your leadership, et cetera, et cetera, and if any employer is willing to make sure you get paid what you’re worth, it goes a long way alongside the other ways they can show you they value you, your time away from your family, and ensure you can afford to relax when you’re not working. I think if we had more transparency around what is a living wage in our regions, how much positions paid, and actually tied leadership salaries to those who are working the frontline and assistant level positions, that would be a policy I’d be happy with.

Hermione: Any parting thoughts?

Luna: Drink water. Take a nap. That deadline might not actually be real so stop stressing out about it. Spend time with the people you love. Stop and smell a flower today. Put on your favorite song and dance to it. You owe that to yourself. Also, if you feel yourself burning out, listen to your body. I’ve burned out once and I won’t allow it to happen again Don’t apologize for taking care of yourself and stepping back as you need to, You?

Hermione: I am still working on believing that how good I am as a person is not evaluated on a “how much did I get done today” metric, so I’m saying this as much for me as for everyone else: Your work is not your self-worth. You do not have to be good. Celebrate that everyday something has tried to kill you and has failed.